In this column by my friend Rachel Kramer Bussel:
But how do guys feel? My curiosity was sparked by blogger Derek Rose (derekrose.com), who’s looking for more of a “partner than a princess.” He’s fine with paying for the first date, and even the second, but “if a girl hasn’t offered to pay for anything by the third date, she better look like Angelina freakin’ Jolie, or else it’s ‘Sayonara.’ I don’t have any desire to be a sugar daddy,” writes Rose. …
Where does sex come into play? Guys: If you’re looking to get laid, getting the check is the bare minimum. This doesn’t guarantee your way into her bed, certainly—girls don’t want to feel like you’re buying their affection. One woman prefers to go dutch so she’s free to turn down her date’s sexual advances. The way Rose sees it, “After the first date, a girl can get away with either not putting out or not offering to split the bill, but doing neither is a definite strike against her; it makes you wonder just how interested she is.” He tells of a friend who took a girl for their third date to a Dave Matthews concert. They made out at the bar afterward, but when she insisted on going home alone, he was annoyed.
You can read the post she’s quoting from here, if you haven’t already. (It’s kind of a funny thing to be known for, really, I’m not a crusader on this! I admit, that Angelina Jolie line was a bit of an exaggeration, I’ve know I’ve asked girls for a fourth date who hadn’t offered to pay for anything by the third — or, for that matter, hadn’t put out. It’s just annoying, s’all).
I hope I don’t get my friend in any trouble with this concert anecdote! But I don’t think there’s any way for the girl involved to recognize herself … they are still dating but I have yet to meet her. If I recall, he was miffed not so much just that she didn’t go home with him, but she also didn’t offer to pick up a round of drinks after being treated to a concert on a third date.
I like how Rachel concluded the column:
It’s crass to have to think about money when you’re trying to connect with the potential love of your life, and there’s potential for miscommunication and mistrust. I wish this topic were less volatile and divisive. But until I win the lottery or meet my soul mate, it’s going to be a factor.
UPDATE 2/28: Jessica at Feministing also has some thoughts: “I … find it kind of insulting–I’m not a child, I can manage to feed and entertain myself.”
My sense is that the woman wants to know that the man can provide for her. As liberated as many women are, for a lot there is a sense in the back of their braiins that maybe they will be a mom with five kids. If you’re complaining that on a 3rd date that they haven’t picked up a round of drinks, sounds like you’re looking for a sex buddy and not a ltr with a woman. They get that. That is my two cents on why the offer is not made. And, for whatever its worth, any lady meeting you now and reading your blog/the voice story is gonna get an eyepopping glance into how you think. A good thing? I dunno. I don’t think so, but I’m old fashioned. Wonder what the mofo thinks about this.
Ehh, I don’t know. If I was looking for a “sex buddy,” I really wouldn’t care about a round of drinks — that is what, $12-24 or so? What’s more important is that the girls I date and have ltrs with have a sense of fairness.
And make no mistake about it: I make a journalist’s salary. Women who want to stay at home and have five kids while living in Manhattan … they need to be dating corporate executive types, not me.
Thanks, though, for letting me know about the C-Span thing! I tried to email you about it, but it bounced back to me.
Actually, I can see some of Ariana’s point– as liberated as our society is, and as easily as the woman can be the bread-winner in a relationship, there is some truth to the stereotype that the man provides for the woman. So I’m not opposed to picking up the cost of the first or second date, or even *most* of the cost *most* of the time. But (as I’ve said before) plenty of women do date solely to take what they can from guys. These women are not the majority nor the mainstream, but men encounter them often enough to be wary.
The real issue here is that men want some sign of *reciprocal interest.* I’m happy to pay for dinners out if you offer to cook for me sometime, or suggest that we stay in and watch a DVD, or something like that. I’m also happy to pay for all the dates if, frankly, you’re mauling me by the end of the night. Men only want to know they are not being played for the fool. There are many different ways to show that to him, and so long as you do, he’ll be happy and keep coming back for more.
And furthermore…
Kudos to Rose for pointing out the obvious: men also worry that they have enough money to suppor a woman. Dating is not cheap. Even men who make very decent salaries (um, by normal standards, not Manhattan, which really is a unique place) can find themselves stretched if they’re supporting the dates and everything else in life’s expenses, too.
while it’s nice when the guy pays on the first date (and I do make it a habit to at least offer)…I’m a little tired of hearing from others “at least you got a free dinner/drinks out of it” if it doesn’t work out. believe me, i’d be happy to split the bill if it meant there would be some potential…am i making sense here?
Mofo wrote:
Exactly. And ditto what he says about cooking dinner, or something. It’s not about the money, it’s about receiving a nice gesture — something guys appreciate as much as women. I don’t know that there are that many “dinner whores” out there, deliberately using guys’ wallets … but no one wants to feel they are lavishing their time and attention (and cash) on a semi-interested woman.
For the record on the Dave Mathews thing, it was one of her favorite bands and we were sitting in a fully stocked (dinner / drinks) suite at MSG. I had picked up dinner and drinks for the two prior dates. Now, on the third date, at the end of a first class night, is it too much to ask that when we get to a club afterwards she pick up one round of drinks? Yeah, it annoyed me that she didn’t even reach for her wallet. Of course she could have made up for it by coming home with me, but that didn’t happen either.
But this annoyance didn’t stop me from going back for more. It wasn’t a deal breaker, but it certainly didn’t help things.
Take heed of Date Guy’s experience, ladies– that woman is a dinner whore.
I agree with Flygirl.
And I also agree with Derek. By a third date, women should offer to split a bill out of fairness. I actually think women should usually offer before that, but I think if a guy did the asking he should try to get the first two anyway.
As for the first girl who commented – well, if you’re worrying about a man “providing,” then you’re going to limit yourself to men with really high salaries if they’re in this area, and if you’re willing to miss out on a lot of potentially great guys, that’s your decision. Leave ’em to the rest of us – thanks!!! You really can’t count on someone else providing for you, though, in this day and age. There are no guarantees.
Most of all, though, I agree with this:
It’s crass to have to think about money when you’re trying to connect with the potential love of your life, and there’s potential for miscommunication and mistrust.
YES, thank you, Rachel. If you really like someone, then you want to make them happy. The cost of a few dinners and drinks is a small price to pay to find the love of your life. A guy who goes on a lot of dates will say that it adds up, but as a friend of mine has said, date smarter, not harder. If you only go on dates with women who you have had conversations with (or e-mails with if you’ve met on-line), you should be able to gauge some sense of mutual interest first. Or at least potential things in common. I know it isn’t always easy, but.
There’s a difference between offering to pay and not meaning it, and offering to pay and meaning it. It’s not hard to tell which is which. I’m interested to know what men think when women offer to pay but clearly are hoping the man will refuse and insist on paying?
Eh, even the gesture is appreciated.
“It’s not hard to tell which is which.” … I dunno, I think you can’t really tell whether it’s a sincere offer or not unless you turn them down once. And after a couple dates I will likely accept such offers. (Not that I think going dutch is the greatest thing, it’s better to take turns paying, imho)