When I saw my old friend Matt the other day, one of the things that came up was the Jewish chicas. Both of us went to the same small high school in the same tiny Massachusetts city where we knew, like, zero Jewish people. (My favourite English teacher was Jewish, but none of our classmates).
Since moving to New York, though, of course that has changed. I would say about half the girls I’ve dated have been Jewish, including S. (And it seems like that 70% of the blogs I read are by Jewish folks). Matt says he has a “strange physical attraction” for Jewish girls that he can’t quite explain, and sometimes his friends tease him about having a “thing” for them.
I would not say that I have a “thing” for Jewish girls, however. I guess if all other things were equal, I would prefer to date a girl who would celebrate Christmas with me. But in the grand scheme of things, that is not at all important … probably like No. 946 or so on the list of things I want in a girlfriend.
And I’ve found often, all other things aren’t equal. It seems like this city is teeming with smart, attractive, kind, sweet, successful, sexually liberated and yet amazingly still single Jewish girls. Girls who care about the world, not just their small corner of it, and who seem just a teensy bit exotic to me.
With all that going on, it’s easy to not worry about cultural things still I don’t quite understand, like the whole calling-your-mom-multiple-times-a-day thing. (Sorry Mom … but gosh, when I was a teenager I couldn’t wait to be independent of the parentals…)
The real problem with dating the Jewish women is that sometimes they seem to care more about the whole Jew/non-Jew thing a lot more than I do. One of my guy friends told me, discussing this topic with him, that every time he hears a Jewish girl talking about how she wants to date Jewish guys it “wounds” him. A couple years ago, I briefly dated this randy young lass who was quite willing to fool around with me, but was very clear she planned to accede to her parents wishes that she marry a Jewish guy. Ouch! (That’s okay though, it probably wouldn’t have worked on my end either: she was a smoker).
I can certainly understand why someone for whom religion is important just wanting to date within their religion … but often these are girls don’t go to synagogue and really aren’t religious. So I don’t quite understand it. Bex explained that even “Cream cheese & Lox” Jews are concerned about the survival of their people, etc.
I guess from my perspective — I’m an atheist mutt and very much an individualist; can’t really imagine a group being that important to me that I’m willing to alter who I date. The whole concept of ethnic pride just really isn’t my thing at all, it kinda turns me off in fact. I’m more of a John Lennon type of guy.
But to each their own. Thankfully, for my sake, there are a lot of Jewish girls who don’t really care about this. I certainly never got the feeling S. wanted me to be Jewish, or that her parents did.
Agreed, Jewish chicks are hot.
Yeah, there are a lot of Jooish gals who don’t really care. The same thing happens with guys, though. And it all has to do with fear of mom and dad, which is ridiculous. (I’m a nonrelig Joo so I can say this.) There are plenty of Jewish girls and guys who have a slight preference to marry other Jews, only because it will mean their parents will be pleased with them. And sometimes the parents aren’t even religious either! It’s just like a note of pride or something. It’s silly.
I say, you gotta marry who you love.
Anyway, there isn’t anything cultural about having to call mommy 20 times a day – that’s just overprivilege.
Derek, I have to say, your blog is one of the few guys’ blogs I’ve read that is sensible about dating. There are so many male blogs that stereotype or blame all single women just because the guy hasn’t found exactly what he wants. They’re like, “Gee, how come ALL the hot hot hot women in New York only care about clothes and money!” Or “How come all of you girls are fat? It’s not faaaair.” These guys only want rail-thin girls, then don’t get it when the hot girls are superficial. I mean, really. There is middle ground here.
By the way, Jewish girls are all different, just like girls in general, so any guy who’s overwhelmingly pro- or anti-them probably hasn’t met enough.
Oh, nice picture of matzah ball soup. đ Funny!
Is it matzah or matzo? I wasn’t sure. In the defense of hot girls, I will say that there’s plenty of non-superficial hotties in this city. But thanks.
I am very glad that my parents would judge any girl I brought home on her character, rather than her ethnicity or religion. If they ever tried to do so — not that they ever would — I think I’d be so mad I’d disown them or something.
(P.S. – Wait, is that sentence hypocritical? “Non-superficial hotties”? … Some might say I’m being superficial myself here. I’ll admit that. đ )
I’m not sure how to spell it. I’ve seen it lots of diff ways.
I’m not saying all hot girls are superficial…more that a lot of these guys find women solely based on superficial criteria, then are alarmed when some of them are just as superficial as they are.
You could pretend to be Jewish. Your name is Rose.
And your friend Matt is Matt, which also sounds Jewish. I like his blog too…too bad it stopped suddenly.
I bet Matt will revive it eventually. He just needs some encouragement. “Rose” is actually Cape Verdean, in my case. An interesting idea, but I gotta be me.
Re: those other male bloggers you mentioned. I’m not sure who you are talking about, I don’t read that many dating blogs. But right now I’m reading this graphic novel, Mad Night, featuring Judy Drood, Girl Detective. (It will be a Christmas gift for my teenage half-brother, but I’m giving it a pre-read). Anyway, one of the pirate girls has captured Drood’s wimpy sidekick. Eventually she gets fed up and tells him, “Wow. Is there any chance you could stop whining? … Just learn to open up your eyes, you know? ‘Oh boo hoo – I wanna meet girls’ — like we’re not all around you every day. Maybe we just don’t want to meet you!” That’s pretty much how I feel about whiny people of both sexes.
Derek Rose, relationship philosopher. I can agree with the growing up Jew-free thing, having been born in raised in Catholic/Protestant territory. I knew one Jewish kid in 18 years in Manchester! But smoking–that’s your relationship killer? That’s one of the only things about a person you actually CAN change. Better pick a more difficult deal breaker. There are plenty out there. Like heroine. (This coming from a smoker.)
ok, i know i addressed this once on my blog, but here goes.
i have dated both jewish and non-jewish (my first serious boyfriend not being jewish)…and i can’t say there is a clear-cut advantage to one over the other…yeah, it is easier to date someone who understands your customs and culture but if someone non-jewish is willing to work with it too (and not do something like, take me out for pasta during Passover like said boyfriend did!) it could work.
for me personally, i think the pressure comes more from the parentals/family. i’ll admit it, i’m not overly religious either-only going to synagogue on the high holy days, if at all. i’ll try and last on yom kippur as long as i possibly can, but if i slip up, i slip up (mostly on passover-i always wind up breaking it 2 days early!) i haven’t received 8 hanukkah gifts since i was a little one! for me i equate religion with my family’s traditions and customs, and would to carry than on, and would want my boyfriend to share in that with me. and likewise, if said boyfriend wasn’t jewish, i’d be all about sharing his family’s christmas customs (which i have before)
i remember one year, a few years back, when every wedding i attended that year was inter-religious. i thought then “man, is it really not as big a deal anymore?”
but…if you’re talking further down the line, like family-wise…i’d want to raise children to be jewish, i would want a kid to be bar/bat mitzvahed-to really share in and appreciate what i did when i was 13. that, i think may have been the deal-breaker with my ex-boyfriend…as he was like “we can never start a family, you can’t give a kid a communion and a bar mitzvah” or something along those lines.
but i’m getting way too ahead of myself, i think!! đ
I remember that pasta-on-Passover comment. Actually I asked S. about that, if she would have been offended if I had taken her out for pasta on Passover … she said no.
What do you think it means to raise a kid Jewish, especially if you’re not religious yourself? Just celebrating the high holidays and a mitzah? A Gentile friend of mine (a fellow atheist) is pregnant with her first kid that I believe will be raised with both Jewish and the traditional Christian holidays. Twice the presents! I guess if I have kids, I’d want them to be free to choose their own identity when they’re old enough.
Kate — yeah, but you can’t really go into a relationship thinking you’re going to change someone. Of course, if a girl was willing to give up the smokes in exchange for the exquisite pleasure of my company, I’d be fine with that … I don’t really care if someone smokes while drinking or something, but smoking in your own apartment is kinda gross.
I think ‘Jewish Girls’ is a kind of a difficult group to clump together into the generalized ‘I tend to like them’, because as Caren said they (we?) are all very different. Plus, it’s very hard to tell if a girl is Jewish or not. Just what about them (us?) do you like so much or what exactly makes them (us?) so hot? I mean, I have red hair and blue eyes, my family comes from Sweden and France (so I don’t have any exotic looks).
Some Jewish girls celebrate Christmas and some don’t. Some will only date other Jewish guys, and some don’t care. There are so many degrees of ‘religiousness’, it seems hard to clump ‘Jewish girls’ into a category.
“What exactly makes them so hot?” Hmm. I would simply say that there are a lot of hot Jewish girls in the city, and what makes each one hot is an individual thing. There are certainly … how do I want to say this? It is not like I find each and every Jewish girl attractive. Nor do I set out to date Jewish girls. I set out to date girls I find attractive (and are smart, funny, etc.), and it just so happens that a high proportion of the girls I’ve dated have been Jewish. I’m not really sure why that is. (It is not like I go on oh-so-many dates, but it is something I’ve noticed).
As you say, it’s pretty tricky to make generalizations about any ethnic group. But I will say that I do find a lot of Jewish girls with Eastern European ancestry to be kinda exotic-looking. Also, it is my sense that most Jewish girls do not have the weird sexual hangups of many Catholics.
Are you by any chance attracted to Asian girls? or Indian girls? Plenty of those in NYC as well…unless you are only attracted to White girls…
I’d agree with Rose on this one. Jewish girls tend to be curvy, which I find a whole lot more attractive than being thin or boyish. They tend to be intelligent, I suspect because many come from solidly middle-class (or better) families that put a premium on education. They also tend to be talkative, which might be cultural. All in all, Jewish girls are just a lot of fun to date.
Mia — y’know, this was not so much a post about physical attraction as the total package. Looks were just one thing I mentioned. I haven’t exclusively dated white girls, but I’ll admit it’s mostly been that way.
Also — what about the black girls? There are some rather attractive black girls from middle-class backgrounds in the city. I think I have more in common with them than say, Indian women.
P.S.: Sarah, did you read the NY Magazine article, “Are Jews Smarter?” from a few weeks ago?
P.P.S. Thinking about this a little more … I really think I’d have a hard time explaining why I liked my ex-girlfriends, let alone why I seem to like Jewish girls. I mean, of course I think all my ex-es were smart and cute and funny and sweet. But you can say that about lot of girls. One might say I felt “chemistry” with them … but that’s not really much of an explanation. Basically, as I learned in Intro Psych 101, the conscious mind really has no idea what the unconscious mind is up to. I guess if you were able to put into words what you actually want in a mate and whom you’ll have “chemistry” with, then online dating might actually work.
what do you think about Jewish guys dating or maryying asian women?? I was curious because there seems to be a growing trend of this, I was just wondering why….
Well, the stereotype is that Asian women tend to be submissive, and that’s why they’re desired by certain white guys, I guess.
I found an interesting article in my paper about this back in 1997, by an Asian woman, Sallie Han. (“Wonton Lust” was the headline … “America’s suddenly hot for Asian women, but that leaves some of us feeling cold”)
Another interesting article here.
Thank you Derek for your response…I am sorry to say that Asian women are not as submissive as white or other guys choose to believe. They are in for a surprise if they think that way.. =)
Please check this link out:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=10405
Great post!
As you read on my blog, this is a huge dilemna for me. There’s no simple explanation as to why I prefer to date Jewish guys other than it’s more comfortable and makes things much easier down the road.
I can never see myself celebrating Christmas or having a Christmas tree in my house. And if I fell in love with someone who did celebrate Christmas, I could never ask that person to stop celebrating their holiday. I have two Jewish friends who were engaged to non-Jewish men. A few months before their weddings, both men decided they couldn’t give up celebrating their holidays. I don’t ever want to be in that situation, nor do I ever want to ask someone to give up something like that.
Furthermore, when I have children, I want them to grow up as I did–I want them to attend Hebrew school, soak up the culture, have a bar/bat mitzvah, learn the importance of tikkum olam and tzedakah. I want them to learn about the holidays and choose the level of observance they feel comfortable with. I want them to know their history and be proud of being Jewish. I want them to not be ashamed or embarrased when people tell them, “you’re the first Jew I’ve ever met.” Trust me, it happens, even in Los Angeles.
But don’t you think it was a little mean, canceling on this guy a few hours before you were supposed to have dinner with him?
Also … I do understand, after dating a Jewish girl for several years, that some people just aren’t interested in celebrating Christmas. And that is fine. But what is so wrong about a Christmas tree that you can’t see having one in your house? I’ve never lived with a girl, and not particularly interested in Judaism (or any other religion). But I would not mind if a Jewish girl I was living with wanted to put up a Menorah or something like that. And of course I’d never ask anyone to “give up” their holidays … I’ve been to a couple Passover dinners, in fact.
Aren’t relationships all about compromise?
No, I don’t think it was mean. I explained to him I only date Jewish men when we first met. Would it have been nicer for me to fall in love with him then years later break up with him because I couldn’t see myself marrying him?
I’m Jewish–I don’t celebrate Christmas and I don’t believe in Christ. Why would I have a symbol of that holiday in my home?
I want my children to grow up with a Jewish identity. By them celebrating Christmas in addition to the Jewish holidays, how would that be possible?
And yes, I agree relationships are about compromise. But everyone have some things they aren’t willing to compromise on.
But then why did you agree to have dinner with him in the first place? and spend hours talking with him on the phone?
I don’t believe in Christ either. But I don’t really see Christmas as being about Christ, and certainly not the Christmas tree. And if you’re sharing a home with someone … well, personally, I would not mind if my wife or g/f had symbols of a holiday (or religion) that I didn’t celebrate in our home. It’s a shared space, after all.
The whole concept of wanting to raise kids to have a certain identity … I guess I’m a mutt and the whole concept of ethnic identity is lost on me. But to each their own.
I don’t know…I question that myself as well. I was confused, not sure how important Judaism really was to me, finding myself, etc.
I think that if you grow up with a strong sense of religious identity, it may be more important to you as an adult. My friends who grew up identifying with a specific religion tend to gravitate toward others of that same religion in terms of who they date.
[…] Here’s a blog-post by a non-observant Jewish girl explaining why she only dates Jewish guys. It goes with my earlier post on that subject. […]
I read this thread with interest. I think Derek that you are naive to think that Jewish and Christian religious customs can be mixed so easily within a relationship.
Lets face it, Christians have nothing to worry about, their religion is all inclusive plus they’ve hardly ever been persecuted in modern history in comparison to Jews.
Jews HAVE been persecuted and guess who was doing it?? Yeah, lol, people with christmas trees in their houses. So its not surprising that Jewish people in the back of their mind equate the christmas tree with, in fact, something that they hate.
You admit that you ave a thing for Jewish girls but be preapred for a lot of hassle. because I know many… many jewish girls that date non-Jewish guys but in fact usually break it off prior to the age where they want to have kids and settle down. They realise that the NJ guy just cannot deliver in certain areas when it comes to understanding culture. There’s no point trying to “compromise” about that, its a Jewish thing and its vitally important that our traditions continue. Trying to reason that out in accordance with modern day Christian beliefs isn’t going to work for some Jewish girls or guys.
Baruk haShem đ
Ehh, if someone has that kind of chip on their shoulder, I doubt I’d be dating them in the first place. That’s like resenting all Jews for “killing Jesus.”
Just fyi, I am not Christian and no longer live in N.J. (I’m from Massachusetts). Also, I said I didn’t think I had a “thing” for Jewish girls; I just seem to date a lot of them.
And while I’m sure many Jewish girls do break it off and go for a Jewish guy, intermarriage rates show that many do not.
People who place vital import on traditions should probably just date within their race & culture, or just people who are willing to convert. I see nothing wrong with going against tradition.
No its not the same. We are an ethnic minority… Christians aren’t. Christians have persecuted Jews not the other way around, so get your facts right. And in fact, Christians have used that Jews killed Jesus as an excuse to kill and persecute Jews for centuries, you think that can be forgotten just like that?
The funny thing is that you want to deny the fact that you do have a thing for Jewish girls. Sub-conciously you are looking for Jewish partners and you clearly have a big enough issue with this in your own mind to post a whole message thread about it and discuss it for the past two months. Why? That’s the question. I wonder what it is in your family history that makes a Jewish partner so important for you?
As for the inter-marriage rates, yeah sure they are high. If you find a girl with no Jewish id. then yeah i guess she’ll marry out and her parents won’t care but im takling about proper Jewish girls who practice and are pro-Israel from strong Jewish famillies. Or Israeli girls. And considering that I live in Tel Aviv, you might say that I have had this conversation “once or twice” with the odd Jewish girl. Let me tell you, again, that MANY want Jewish kids with Jewish husbands, have tried NJ guys and ended up coming back to the tribe.
Your attraction (i would more say “obsession”) with “exotic” Jewish girls won’t neccessarily be the nice and straight forward relationship that you expect. Wait until you are on bended knee then you’ll find out đ
Am Yisrael hai.
Gil, you miss my point. According to the New Testament, early Christians (including the big J.C.) were indeed persecuted by Jews. But blaming the Jewish people for that is just insane. Blame the people who actually did the persecuting … not an entire race of people.
Your reasoning is like disliking all black people ’cause your grandmother was once mugged by a black man. It’s just crazy and racist.
I’m not going to dignify your psychoanalysis of me with a response … grow up. There are a ton of eligible Jewish girls in nyc, anyone who does much dating here is going to end up dating some of them.
Maybe being in Tel Aviv, you don’t understand the diversity of the American Jewish community … but there are a lot of “proper” Jewish girls here who are proud of their heritage, yet don’t care that strongly about this. Hell, some of them don’t even support Israel!
I think the real question, why do you feel so threatened by some of us liking the Jewish girls? Are you worried we’ll give them something you can’t? đ
To say that early Christians were persecuted by Jews and try to compare that to the massive scale of Christian persecution of Jews throughout the past two thousand years is laughable. consult some proper historians my friend or read any history books on that subject before you try to even come with that weak hearted argument.
And then you have the audacity… the unmittigated hutzpah to call me “racist”… hhahaha what a fucking joke. This after the way American wasps treat Jews in the US, get a life my friend, you are ignorant beyond belief.
I don’t live in Tel Aviv full time. In fact I emigrated recently from London where also we have a big problem with anti-semitiism. I understand the diversity of the Jewish community in NY and the USA very well. I have lots of family there. My step father is from NY and I regularly travel there to conduct business. Don’t try to patronise me my friend, I’ve spent lots of time in NY, I’m quite up to date on whats going on there.
I’m not worried in the slightest about what some wasps think they can or can’t “give” our Jewish girls. This statement alone sums up your true fear that you will always be an outsider, even when you find a Jewish partner. You’ll forever make an ass our of yourself. you can’t even pronounce the name of a simple bowl of chicken soup….
here let me teach you “schlemiel”. this is pronounced shleh~mee~elle.
Dude, I didn’t claim that early Jewish persecution of Christians was “comparable” to Christian persecution of Jews. Of course it wasn’t.
Maybe “racist” is the wrong word … but my point (which you seem to keep missing) is that it’s stupid, pointless and bigoted to blame all the members of a group or class for the actions of a few of its members. Let me give you a different example: it’s stupid for blacks to resent whites for slavery.
And don’t make assumptions, I’m not a wasp. I’m half-black, was baptized Catholic and come from a very middle-class background.
I don’t know that I will “find” a Jewish partner. Really, it’s not a priority. But I’m sure if I did, yes, I would always be an outsider to Jewish culture. I made an effort to learn when I was dating S., but I would constantly do stuff like confuse Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah.
OK my bad, i shouldn’t jump to conclusions about you being a wasp, clearly you aren’t. Also, i must admit a previous penchant for black women and yes i am white.
That said, all too many non-Jewish guys just lust after Jewish girls because they are “exotic”. It makes me feel pretty sick actually, they are not able to appreciate Jewish culture neither to they ggive ashit about it. Its just abusive really. Use and abuse.
By the way, when i date black women i feel that i can relate to them and black culture which i respect. But i can imagine how black guys feel when they see me with black girl (im talking outside of israel)… i know how they feel!!
[…] Okay, so I’ve done my best to entertain y’all with my theories of who pays for dates, dating Jewish chickas, the three-day rule, and how much to spend on engagement rings. Now I feel it is time to bite off the big enchilada — sex and dating. […]
Hiya Derek,
I don’t even know HOW I came across your blog. I think I was trying to find pictures of attractive Jewish girls for a conversation I was having with a friend. *snicker*
I found your friend’s comment of “strange physical attraction” hilarious as I share that point of view. Being a bit Jew-isolated out in Colorado, I miss seeing Hebrew hotties about. (I grew up, raised Jewish in Chicago) In fact, I’ve started to become bored with the amount of blondes that poplate this state…
Anyway. Wonderful discussion. Ciao. đ
Sex and dating?? Well what about it? What’s there to say? i think Jewish girls and Jewish ppl are on the whole MUCH more sexually liberated because they dont have to deal with Christian values equating sex with sin. On the other hand what people don’t suffer from one sexual hang up or another?
Still it remains, Jewish girls are by far more sexually liberated. Talking about English wasps, they are a whole different story tend to be with total drunken sluts or really uptight.
So Derek im curious to hear what you think on this.
I think there is some truth to that, definitely. I imagine it is not so much anything about Jewish girls than it is that many Christians are taught, as you say, that sex=sin. Or at least sex outside of marriage. I wonder how Unitarians and Episcopalians compare to Jewish folks.
But like any other generalization, of course there are a lot of exceptions.
I was looking for a blog written by a woman dating a Jewish man, and came across this as the first link. At first, strangely offended, but immediately afterwards, very amused. Have you read My Uncle Oswald by Roald Dahl? Adult book. All these comments attributing women of certain ethnic backgrounds to certain sexual tendencies reminds me of it very much.
Why were you “strangely offended”? In fact im not surprised that you were but am curious to know if its the same reason that I was.
The thing that Derek doesn’t realise is that some (many) Jews don’t actually like nonJewish guys messing with our women. Especially when its done in such a gratuitous way. For example:
Derek writes:
“The real problem with dating the Jewish women is that sometimes they seem to care more about the whole Jew/non-Jew thing a lot more than I do. One of my guy friends told me, discussing this topic with him, that every time he hears a Jewish girl talking about how she wants to date Jewish guys it âwoundsâ him.”
It almost implies that its the fault of “the Jewish women”. What do you mean “they seem to care”?? F**k of course they care its their culture what a blatant expose of cultural ignorance!! The real fault here is the ignorant and clumsy approach made by guys who just want to screw jewish “chicks” or have a nice cultural badge to tout around because its “a teensy bit exotic”. AS for the guy who is “wounded” how pathetic is that?? i mean what does he honestly expect from a culture that has managed to survive for 5000 years?? That Jewish women should just open their legs / hearts to the first non_Jew that happens to wander by…. sh*t, I don’t thinks so somehow.
In fact as it turns out Derek isn’t such a bad guy. But he needs to EDUCATE himself about Jewish culture and approach it from a MUCH higher level of respect. As do any persons who wish to date another person of a different ethnic background, be they Jewish, Black or Hispanic.
Gil, c’mon, “our women”?? Do you own these women? The women I date are adults, capable of making their own decisions. I’m sure there are people who disapprove of my dating girls in “the tribe,” just like there are people who didn’t like my parents’ interracial relationship. Folks like that can go screw, frankly.
I don’t really feel the need to defend how I treat women to you (a “cultural badge” … um, whatever), but as I’ve said before, I dated a Jewish girl for 3 1/2 years — by far my longest relationship. If you’re really so concerned about guys “who just want to screw jewish ‘chicks'” you really need to look closer to home. I think one of the reasons why so many pretty NYC “bagel and lox” Jewish girls are willing to entertain relationships with Gentiles is that many of the attractive Jewish guys here are busy playing the field, dating a different girl off Jdate each night. (That’s what I hear, anyway).
Sorry if my cultural ignorance is so offensive to you. I certainly admit there is much I still don’t know about Jewish culture; as I said I knew hardly any Jews growing up. But that works both ways — if you really think Christmas trees are some symbol of Jewish persecution, there’s a lot you need to learn about my culture as well.
And like I said before, I certainly don’t “wish to date” Jewish women. At the time I wrote this post there had just been a string of Jewish girls I was interested in, but I don’t think I liked (or disliked) them because they were Jewish.
Don’t be so defensive Derek, I wasn’t neccessarily referring to you in fact I referenced a paragraph from your blog concerning your friend who is “wounded” when Jewish girls state their interest in finding a Jewish man. Why should that “wound” him I would really like that explained.
Concerning the good old Christmas tree that you are so consumed with, they are a symbol of Christianity and yes, Jews have been persecuted by Christians. That’s a simple fact my friend. Note the Jewish poster on here doesn’t want one in her house and I don’t want one either. its bad enough that we have to sufffer with Christmas being rammed down our throats each year without having a Christmas tree forced on us too.
At the end of the day Derek, it comes down to cultural respect. According to you, in your world, you choose to ignore the fact that people come from different cultural backgrounds because you yourself have chosen to be “neutral” – a half white, half black guy who basically sees himself as “white”. Why don’t you admit that you’re culturally lost?
Why should it “wound” him? No one wants to feel that they aren’t “good enough” for someone. It’s like complaining to a short guy how you can’t find any tall men to date. It’s fine to be proud of one’s ethnicity, but there are some Jewish folks who seem to cross the line into ethnic superiority — that they’re somehow better than everyone else because they’re Jewish. (I don’t think most Jewish people think this way, or even many do, but there does seem to be some out there).
All that said, after discussing this issue here I think I understand this whole issue better and realize it is more an issue of people just wanting to date people they have things in common with.
Yes, there are some Christians who have persecuted Jews, however I don’t believe any Christmas trees have. Most people who celebrate Christmas I think are decent people for whom the Christmas tree is a symbol of joy, happiness and goodwill to man. To twist that into some wedge between Christians and Jews is profoundly offensive IMHO. What is it you said about “cultural respect”? That goes both ways. No one wants to force Christmas trees on anyone. Hell, if it makes you feel better feel free to buy some X-Mas trees and burn them, or something. But if you’re consumed with that kind of bitterness … why would anyone for whom Christmas is important want to be friends with you, much less date you?
“Why don’t I admit I’m culturally lost?” Pah. The whole concept of ethnic idenity just seems so passe, backwards and unimportant to me. Like I said in my post, I’m a John Lennon type of guy.
Gil, you would like it explained why it hurts someone’s feelings when someone says they aren’t of the correct ethnic background to be dated? How can you not understand that? I suspect the reason you can’t understand it is that you could never expect it to happen to you in a meaningful way. I strongly suspect that you have such a sense of your own ethnic superiority that you would never consider wanting to date someone who wasn’t a match for you. So if an non-jew said, “I wouldn’t date you because you aren’t jewish”, you wouldn’t care because the feeling is mutual.
For those of us who care more about the person instead of their family history, it is an unpleasent experience to be told that you aren’t good enough or don’t measure up in someone’s eyes and there is nothing you can do about it. It is hurtful when otherwise the person saying this is a person who you have respect for. Probably the second part of the equation is what doesn’t come into play for you.
This whole discussion is particularly annoying and nonsensical in the case of a religion where any offspring could be raised in the desired religion and where the potential datee can convert down the road as well.
As for dating Jewish chicks being “exotic”? In New York City, you must be kidding me.
Jon, as someone who could count the number of Jewish people I knew growing up on one hand, I admit that some Jewish girls do look a trifle “exotic” to me — esp. the ones who are of eastern European background. But I agree with the rest of what you say.
[…] So White Dade has a post on Jewish girls that is rather opposite to mine: I think Derek Rose may have written one once, but I am hard pressed to find any praise being doled out for Jewish girls that does not involve oral sex. … […]
I will never date Jewish girls again. They are so wrapped up in the whole jew/non-joo thing, it drives me crazy. Although it is my experience that Jewish girls are easy, so that is a plus. I might have to rethink this one.
Derek,
All I have to say is, right on, my friend. While you’re principally talking about dating jewish women, your stance on culture and religion need to be applied to people in general. I can (only) imagine a world where cultural and religious differences are celebrated as interesting and fun instead of symbols of hatred and segregation. There would be a lot more joy in the world.
“Yes, there are some Christians who have persecuted Jews, however I donât believe any Christmas trees have.”
This is a flippant way of avoiding the fact that Christmas trees are a symbol of Christmas. Christmas being the Christian religion. The religion that for a good part of the last two thousand years has persecuted Jews. All very funny. But if you want to have a serious discussion (maybe you don’t?) then at least admit this fact.
In my opinion, to understand people and their culture then its neccessary to look back at the history that formed that people/culture. I guess to a mixed race, happy go lucky guy living in NY in 2006, why should he care about any religion or race issues? You want to live in your own world where “ethnic identity is backward and passe” because you are a “John Lennon kinda guy”. Well thats fine, I salute you for your laid back hippy vibe.
But then, my friend, if you raise issues on the internet and invite people to respond then of course you will receive replies back from Jewish people who aren’t like you. People who are proud of their culture and know the sometimes tragic and yet rich history of their people.
I won’t bother going any futher than that. I think the problem here is perhaps that you are unwilling to accept that unless everyone only aproaches ethnic issues from the “John Lennon kinda guy” perspective, then their opinion isn’t valid. This in itself is a contradiction to how the real John Lennon was ie: open minded and willing to listen.
“Gil, you would like it explained why it hurts someoneâs feelings when someone says they arenât of the correct ethnic background to be dated? How can you not understand that? I suspect the reason you canât understand it is that you could never expect it to happen to you in a meaningful way. I strongly suspect that you have such a sense of your own ethnic superiority that you would never consider wanting to date someone who wasnât a match for you. So if an non-jew said, âI wouldnât date you because you arenât jewishâ, you wouldnât care because the feeling is mutual. ”
Jon, when someone says that I’m not of the correct ethnic background to be dated (and i’ve met for example some black girls who have been of this opinion) then I respect that. I respect the fact that it is important to some people that they find partners who share the same religious and cultural backgrounds. Many Jewish girls I know especially in Israel get bored/frustrated of having to constantly explain to non-Jewish partners about why they are practising or celebrating the Jewish holidays. Or what it means to be Jewish. In your post you demonstrate perfectly how little you know about Jews and how unwilling you are to accept the Jewish mentality which is family-based, tribal and exclusive.
Judaism is not just a religion, its a strong culture and people which it is not so easy to “convert” just like that… Therefore, your point about it being so nonsensical that it being easy to convert is not neccessarily true. It goes much further and more profoundly deeper than that. I think its important that if someone is wounded by the responses of a Jewish or Black or whatever ethnic background related person then they should ask themselves the question “how much do I understand and appreciate that person’s culture?”. If you really understood those Jewish people who felt this way, then you wouldn’t be offended or wounded.
Gil, I think I’ve been very open-minded and willing to listen. Of course I know not everyone has the same approach to ethnic issues as I do, I just think the world would be a much happier place if they did. If people didn’t approach issues in terms of “my people” or “my tribe” but humanity as a whole. And I do think that’s the direction the world is cleary headed. Looking at the world in terms of tribes is just as backward as actual tribes.
I also don’t think it’s fair to say that as a religion, “Christianity [for] a good part of the last two thousand years has persecuted Jews.” But as part of my willingness to listen, I’ll simply ask why you think that.
Hi Derek hows it going? i think your approach is fantastic in its own right however, its definitely not the only view that is right, lets put it that way. I value my heritage. I am not religious but am very spiritual. Although religion seems boring and out of date, in fact culture itself is so important. Preserving the magical and rich culture of my people is something I hold dear. I don’t say this lightly, recently I emigrated to Israel where I now live as a citizen. This is right for me I dont neccessarily recommend it to all Jews but you can see that I “put my money where my mouth is” so to speak. This is not just “talk”, I mean it from the heart.
Over the past thousands of years of Jewish dispersal, Christians persecuted them wherever they went. Jews never lived in peace hardly ever. They were generally forced to live as third class citizens, no better than dogs all because they refused to accept Christ. For example, Jews could not own land or hold positions in government. They were forced to do the job that Christianity at that time forbid; lend money. That’s why now, Jews are so big in finance, law, diamonds, doctors, entertainers… they lent money, read the Torah (law), traded diamonds (which often was their only movable asset as they ran from their burning homes). This is not fantasy Derek, look around your city; hollywood, doctors, lawyers, jewellers… who are they? Jews. Did you know that at the turn of the century most heavy weight boxers were Jewish even in the USA, why? Christians wouldn’t employ them. Check to see if Im right.
Read up on it Derek and you will see that in Europe Jews were expelled at one time or another from almost every country by Christians due to blood libels, pograms, Jewish refusal to convert. Even when they did convert for example in Spain during the Inquisition they became Conversos (secret Jews). Later Conversos were then murdered anew – e ven after some generations. Jews in the UK had to convert in order to become anything and often did for example, the prime minister D’Israeli. Apparently there are over 70M descendants of Jews living in Europe who had been forced to convert.
Then you had the Holocaust. I don’t see that as being so long ago, it was only 20 years before I was born, hey that’s pretty damn close in my book!! Im sorry to tell you that the Catholic Church stood by and watched in glee. Instances of Christians hiding / helping Jews are grossly low if you check the comparable percentage of Christians to Jews in Poland and Germany. This is not my imagination, its a fact. In fact the Vatican recently apologised for it (some fifty years later and much pressure from Israel!!).
The scale of Christian persecution of Jews throughout history is heavy and consistent. Symbols of Christianity such as the crucifix or a Christmas tree for example have different meaning to different people. Just as a white pillow case with two holes or a rope hanging loosely over the branch of a tree will surely have resonance within the soul of a black person.
Gil, I have no problem with people valuing their heritage. I have friends of Greek, Irish, Italian etc. ancestory who are very proud of their heritage and I am all for that. But sometimes it seems like people put their heritage above our common humanity and that’s when I look at them a little askew. (Of course it’s a free country and they have every right to do whatever they want in that regard).
You give some examples about how Christians have persecuted Jews, and that is surely true. But is the Christian religion really to blame for those unChristianlike acts? Or were they a moral failing of individual Christians? I’m not sure.
But I do think it is unfair to judge any person or religion solely on its worst day or moment. There is a lot more to Christianity than just anti-Semitism … of course other terrible things have been done in the name of Christanity like the Crusades but also other great things as well. Y’know, like western civilization. And I do think that Christmas is Christianity at its best: peace on earth and goodwill to man.