This post of Sarah’s got me thinking:
All I know is that I hear my male friends complain about asking women out and then being expected (I guess by the woman) to buy an expensive meal and or drinks. I won’t debate the who should pay issue because I’ve always thought that a man should pay on a first date. I was raised that way … I think a man paying shows he’s interested and that he is taking initiative to do something to say he is, indeed, interested. However, I’ve never expected to be taken to an expensive restaurant. Also, I don’t drink which makes me automatically a cheap date. But moreover, I’ve never actually personally met any girls who expect men to pay for an expensive dinner on the first date. Show me these girls and I’ll believe you. … I’ve dated gentleman who … did pay for the first three dates at least, planned special dinners for birthdays and Valentine’s Day, etc. I’ve been on dates where all we’ve had was Jamba Juice and it was perfectly nice. I don’t need a meal at NOBU. I just like some sign that the guy is interested enough to pay.
Here is my own thoughts on this. (I did bounce all this off my friend Jon, just to get his perspective, and we’re pretty much on the same page).
On a first date, it is fine if a girl shows up without a wallet and just a Metrocard. If she reaches for her purse at the end of dinner — and most girls I’ve dated do — then of course I’ll say something like, “no I’ve got it.” But if she insists on splitting the bill, then that’s appreciated … definitely not expected, but appreciated and impressive.
And it’s worth noting that a number of the girls I’ve dated do make a genuine offer to split the bill on the first date. Attractive, successful girls who certainly aren’t starving for male attention.
Here’s a question, though: after a dinner which the guy has paid for, you get drinks at a bar. The girl offers to pay. Should the guy counter? I don’t think I have in the past, but Jon says he does.
Also, one exception to the ‘it’s-fine-if-she-just-brings-a-Metrocard thing. Twice I’ve been on dates, years ago, where the girl was getting some food and I wasn’t getting anything. But at the cash register, they both stepped aside, basically indicating they expected me to pay. Which of course I did. But I thought that was strange.
Sarah writes, “I think a man paying shows he’s interested,” but I don’t see how it does. It’s just a question of politeness, and what is expected from you as a guy. I’m sure I’ve paid for at least a couple of first dates where I wasn’t interested by the time the bill arrived.
By the second date, though, I do expect a girl to reach for her wallet. (But I don’t think I’ve ever said anything if she hasn’t.) If she does, I’ll probably offer to split it unless she’s a starving grad student or something, in which case I’ll again offer to pick up the whole thing.
If a girl hasn’t offered to pay for anything by the third date, well … she better look like Angela freakin’ Jolie, else it’s likely sayonara. I don’t have any desire to be a sugar daddy.
It’s not that I particularly care about the money. But I’ve had pretty good luck having relationships with girls that are sweet and fair-minded, who want to be treated more as partners than princesses, and I want that streak to continue.
I think the key here is “fair-minded”. Who pays to me has never been about whether a person is interested or not. Good company and a fun time should not come at the expense of one or the other. Mind you I have friends who never understood my way of thinking when it comes to dating. But then I’ve been off the market for a number of years now. But when my hubby and I were “dating” who paid depended on the event. Did he initiate and ask me to go – he paid, his choice. But if it was something I suggested or offered – I paid. And sometimes we split the difference – fairness!
When I am on a date and the check comes, I tell the woman “I’ll get this.” If she protests, I tell her, “No, I did the asking out, so I’d like to pay for the bill.” If she protests a second time, I let her have her way and split the bill in half.
Ideally, however, a woman should offer to help with the bill, the man declines, and she then offers to buy a round of drinks. (And ideally ideally, a first date is just drinks anyway, where the couple can take turns buying rounds or something like that.)
I agree that the woman should offer. I always offer. And I always bring my wallet. Because a lot of time I don’t want to be paid for. If I don’t like the guy enough to go on a second date, I won’t let him pay. Also, if a guy seems awkward about paying I usually insist on paying the entire bill. Not that I have been on oh so many dates, but the dates where I have split the bill or paid myself have statistically never ended in a second date. I’ve found that offering to pay, or refusing the guy’s generosity sends of message of disinterest.
themofo is right that a lot of times the first date is just drinks. Which often times can be more expensive than a casual dinner somewhere.
My worst date ever : I met a guy at a restaurant and when I got there he told me 1) He wasn’t hungry b/c he had a big lunch and 2) that he didn’t drink. It was 7pm on a worknight and I was starving. Okaaaay. So we’re at this restaurant and he doesn’t want to eat or even order a drink (he picked the place). He orders and appetizer (apparently for us to share and which involved, like 4 dumplings. I told him I’d pay for myself and he immediately became hungry, ordering a flank steak and a side order, and suddenly decided he *did* drink and ordered 2 gin and tonics. I ordered an entree too and our bill came to $70. I payed the entire check while he was in bathroom and I never heard from him again.
I think my point is, it’s nice when I offer to pay and the guy refuses to let me. Usually when he does let me pay it means he’s not interested.
Eek, where did you meet this tool?
if a girl is really persistent about splitting a bill on a first date with me (assuming i asked her out), i usually never hear from her again or it is plain obvious that the date isn’t going so hot. however assuming things are going well i almost expect her to at least reach for the wallet by the second or by the 3rd date at a minimum.
also, i do not think the guy paying on the first date necessarily shows interest. its just the right thing to do.
I think what Sarah wrote makes sense, for the sensible career women, however a lot of women know they got it going on and turn heads. These women may not ask, but certainly enjoy being asked out to a nice restrnt and don’t care if they are not really interested in the guy, or will never see him again. In my opinion this is much, much worse than the “big, bar tab, from the girl that sucks down four martinis in one sittinng”–this girl is at least fun and exciting and probably did not intend to get that hammered on a first or second date.
The “big dinner” first date girl is working it and she knows it. She does not care about the guy, the date, or her own self respect she takes the free ride for life, the hot restrnt, big show and fancy car. Its women that do this–oh yeah and there are a lot of em—who justify the “jerk boy” complaint from
“barbian boys” that women better “put out for lobster”, or whatever expensive meal the guy bought.
And I generally don’t take a woman to a high-end place on the first date, either. Now, in full disclosure, I did take my current girlfriend on our first date to drinks at the swankiest restaurant in Boston, but we had stumbled into that by talking about various fancy bars in town as a lead-in to me asking her out.
Normally I’d take a first date to a mid-range place for drinks, but– and this is the important part– the bar must have something to do: darts, pool, trivia games, whatever. Something to show her that my life is not all about drinking, for us to size each other up in other ways, and something that won’t really cost a lot like dinner.
And ditto to the comment about lots of women being dinner whores. They’re out there.
Very interesting to read the different perspectives. While I generally do expect the guy to pay for the first date, I definitely watch as far as what it is we do for a first date. I don’t want to be “that girl” as far as looking to be the one just out for a dinner or whatever it is. Also, if it turns into more than just a dinner or one event, I generally offer to contribute.
However, after the first date I definitely offer to contribute…especially if interested. I think as a woman in the 21st century…working…it shouldn’t even be a question on whether or not to offer. As discussed at brunch yesterday, it’s important to remember that before women didn’t work and men *had* to pay for dates because women literally didn’t have money. Unless you’re a starving student with no money, it should be part of the protocol to offer.
Every situation obviously is different and there will always be extreme instances of abuse (ie examples shown in comments above) but every person evaluates their own situations.
And Sarah…wow. That’s just…wow.
I agree with most of what people wrote, especially the ‘fair minded’ part. It’s not about the money, it’s about meeting someone down-to-earth like you. Whoever asked should probably pay the first time, esp. if they choose the restaurant, but most girls I know always offer, and tend to go dutch soon after that if things progress.
One thing that bugs me, though, I hear guys complain about girls who insist on really fancy places to eat. My response is that if some girl just met you and insists on Nobu, and you’re not into superficial women, then don’t go, or tell her you’re not into fancy places and see how she reacts. It seems like some guys pursue really beautiful, uppity women and then complain that these women are superficial. There are enough fair-minded girls out there (like my friends and I) who don’t ‘summer’ in the Hamptons, etc., but if you want to date the Sex And the City girls, don’t complain when they act like that.
all i have to say is the best date i had this year consisted of skating at wollman rink followed by grabbing a bite/drinks at a nearby bar/brewery and talking-next thing we both know it’s 1 am. casual, low pressure, lots of fun. (i think this one was actually a 2nd or 3rd date though…)
that being said, chalk me up as one who will always at least put an offer on the table to pay. there are times that the guy will insist “no it’s alright, i got it” but i’ll then offer to get something else-like if he pays for dinner, i’ll treat dessert/coffee/drinks/something else later that nite or on a future date. (hopefully there is a future date!)
“Something to show her that my life is all about drinking…”
For the record, the Mofo lives in Somerville, Mass., where peoples lives revolve around things other than drinking. But Manhattan is a drinking town…
I prefer dutch, it’s easier for me. This way the guy doesn’t expect anything from me, they always try to sleep with me.
Well, why not let the guy pay and just sleep with him? Solves a lot of problems, I think…
Thanks for the insights. I’m 54 and my girlfriend is 40 and we are both in LA. We both have good jobs and are well past our first date. Outside of one small meal she has not offered to pay for anything in months. She says that is the way most women are…It remains very irritating to me.
[…] You can read the post she’s quoting from here, if you haven’t already. (It’s kind of a funny thing to be known for, really, I’m not a crusader on this! I admit, that Angelina Jolie line was a bit of an exaggeration, I’ve know I’ve asked girls for a fourth date who hadn’t offered to pay for anything by the third — or, for that matter, hadn’t put out. It’s just annoying, s’all). […]
[…] Okay, so I’ve done my best to entertain y’all with my theories of who pays for dates, dating Jewish chickas, the three-day rule, and how much to spend on engagement rings. Now I feel it is time to bite off the big enchilada — sex. […]
I’m a 31 year old gal. For a period of 8 years I was married. I was raised in the New England suburbs. While I currently am a starving grad student, I don’t see that as the only reason a man should pay for my dinner.
No, I’m not hot. I’m not superficial. I also don’t gouge anyone. Depending on the guy’s income I have almost always ordered the cheapest thing on the menu and no guy has every complained. Perhaps that is why they ended up staying as first dates and did not become relationships but so be it.
Here’s the deal. This is my logic. I don’t care if you don’t like it.
For the guys that just joined me for dinner and expected me to go dutch: I don’t care if we just meet for coffee on a first date. Ya know, I don’t need fancy. But I think on any budget you can manage to buy me a coffee. Can’t? F**k off. If I am out with a male friend that is a whole other matter. I will happily split with friends, male or female.
For the guys that had the nerve to expect me to pay for him: No way, no day. You can go clean the dishes in the back for all I care. I’ve also had guys show up and claim to not be hungry. Ok, don’t eat then. Damned if I care.
A guy paying for dinner is like displaying his peacock feathers. It shows nesting ability. It shows he can live comfortably enough to spurge for another person. If he can’t afford to do that for multiple women in a month, then he just shouldn’t do it. And frankly, if he is dating that many women his agenda most likely isn’t a relationship…. it’s screwing. That doesn’t get any respect or help from me at all. Dinner or not I’m not putting out on a first date.
You can’t invest a little to get to know me? Then you don’t deserve me anyhow.
That’s *debate*
You seem angry.
Yes I am. This has just become a sore spot between myself and this guy I am seeing. He is telling me that if this policy was known to him before we met he never would have. Ok? And? I most likely wouldn’t have met him either. Is it worth still getting bent out of shape about? He sends me this blog today…. with the intent pointing god knows what out to me.
So what, is he expecting me to change my stance on this? Not going to happen. Just because others don’t agree it is not logical to change my opinion. That is an ad populum argument and fallacious.
Now, yes, I am angry.
You are both being ridiculous and silly and pathetic. An “ad populum argument and fallacious” .. please. It’s a matter of social expectations and what you want in a relationship, not a moral question. And your boyfriend is just as bad; why is this worth fighting over?
Maybe if I was a starving graduate student who pays for a first date would be a big deal. But I’m not, so it isn’t, even if it isn’t 100% fair that some women expect me to pay. In general I don’t take girls out to dinner on a first date anyway. Also my dates probably spend far more effort and money “looking pretty” before the date than I do, so it all tends to even out.
Morality is not the only topic in which logic plays a part. An ad populum argument is any one in which the support for a premise is popular opinion. The popular opinion in the 1400’s was that the earth was flat. An ad populum argument would state that because everyone else agrees so should you. Everyone thinks the earth is flat so should you. It is false logic.
And yes, I agree that this is silly and pathetic. And honestly, I don’t think it has much to do with the issue at hand. I think he is picking at me for a whole other purpose.
And as I said, I am perfectly comfortable meeting for a cup of coffee. I have done that before and never have I complained or been disappointed.
You’re being unreasonable … if this is how you debate things I understand your boyfriend’s frustration with you.
Unlike whether the earth is flat, there is no “right” or “wrong” answer as to who should pay for a first date. It is just a matter of social mores, custom and what one wants in a relationship. It’s like tipping, or how long you should wait until having sex.
Knowing what people’s expectations are should help guide your behavior … or at least recognize when your own desires are outside the mainstream.
Rather than engage in an ad populum attack, Debate, allow me to give an ad hominem one: Your diatribes are bitter and make the rest of us wince. Please go away.
Now mofo; even if she did join this string a year too late, she is obviously in pain; have some compassion you mofo… Oh… maybe that is why you’re the mofo. You’re a mofo. F–ing mofo.
ps I agree that even in this day and age of equal this and equal that, the guy should offer to pay … and do so cheerfully. If he doesn’t like that arrangement, move on. But many (if not most) women still expect the guy to be the money man. It’s just the way it is. If you’ve found yourself a sugar mama D, then you’re very lucky.
Ariana, you should go away too, but that’s just because you’re weird.
Now now children, play nice…
Ariana, I don’t know any guy (including myself) who minds paying for a first date. That is why “Debate”‘s bitter diatribe was so bizarre; she was arguing so passionately against something none of us had ever said.
All I ever said was that by the second date the woman should offer to split the bill or pay for drinks or something, and I think it’s fine for a guy to take her up on that offer. (It is always appreciated when a girl offers to split a first-date bill — even more when she means it — but it’s certainly not necessary or required.)
Generally C. and I split the bill or take turns paying.
I always do the coffee thing on first dates at a nice cafe. It isn’t awkward and it gives us an opportunity to chat and get to know one another. It is cheap and so if one of us isn’t interested in the other there are no hard feelings about buying a coffee and snack. I always pay. There are no awkward “looking at the menu” moments and nobody is drunk or feeling awkward if they don’t drink. I always keep low expectations. If she and I want a second date, then maybe a lunch on Saturday or brunch on Sunday is next. Maybe a walk and a trip to a museum after. I would wait until the third date for a medium price restuarant during the evening. I am always willing to pay. Unfortunately, there are lots of strange women who can’t seem to grasp the concept that dating isn’t all expensive dinners and drinks. Very few guys can afford it.
[…] a few more posts in me on dating, or personal finance, but have already blogged about most of the obvious […]
I found this blog cause I am dating again and interested in this topic and peoples opinions, male and female. I had this issue come up in a past relationship and i wanted to see if my thinking was skewed badly
When meeting someone for the first time I usually refuse to do anything more than coffee because I don’t want to feel obligated if I don’t like them. I don’t want them to invest in me and I don’t see how guys can afford to meet women if they have to keep springing for dinner.
On a first date, I would expect a guy to pay. If I offer to contribute to the second dinner and they accept then I definitely feel that they are not interested in me. Really, if they want me to pay, they should not ask me out. I would not eat out on my own.. so I would rather not go.
By the way, I may be cheap but, I have my own business which is basically a part time semi-retirement type of business. I never know what my income is going to be week to week so, I don’t feel comfortable going out to dinner much by myself at all. I almost always make out fine financially but it is not a dependable thing. In the rare instance I will agree to go with a group of friends out to dinner to some inexpensive place where we all pay.. and maybe chip in for a friends birthday.
I can’t afford to split dinners with guys. I own a home and am saving for retirement so i am not destitute but I don’t want to invest in restaurant meals. I would rather invest in having the free time to spend with someone without having to work 40+ hours a week and drive in commuter traffic.
I don’t know if I am much interested in a guy who can’t afford to take me out to dinner now and then. I can go for cheap dinners.. Rubio’s, Indian, Thai or Mexican. I am a vegetarian and don’t drink so, I am a fairly cheap date. I don’t have to be fed.. I would appreciate a hike or a bike ride.
I was in a long time relationship with I guy who knew my financial situation. He said he wanted to pay for all the luxuries since I would not be able to share his lifestyle if I had to pay my share. He was retired and his retirement pension was twice as much as I was making at a full time job. He wanted me to quit working and share his retirement. I would rent out my house and that would cover the expenses of my home and start my own business which would cover my personal expenses and he would cover the rest.
We discussed marriage.
Then he started to resent that he was covering all the vacations which I never would have been able to afford or go on if I was on my own. He started to resent paying in general.
If I knew that I could rely on him for my future, I could have contributed my saving to live equally with him in the now, but since he was not commiting I had to save my nest egg for retirement as I would get no pension.
In another 10 years , if I didn’t touch my savings, my investments would have grown, my house would be completely paid off, and then, I would most probably be able to afford to contribute to more luxuries and vacations.
Basically my net worth.. which I could have left to him would have been slighly less but almost equal to his. And vice versa. Of course he had a pension on top of that.
This money thing became a big issue and now he is alone and I am back dating.
I feel that if a guy really cares, if it is going to develop into a commited relationship then you are going to become one entity and merge your finances. It is not going to be his and hers, it is going to be ours.. splitting equally whatever you both have between you, whoever makes more does not matter.
I would probably want to find someone who was in at least as good shape financially as I am but most probably in better shape. That’s just the way i feel about it. When i was married we alway were equal..making equal money.. contributing equally and I felt that my ex never felt good about himself as a “guy” and successful.
I think even in these times, it is more important for guys to feel financially successful than it is for women.. I think women don’t need that to feel good about themselves. Perhaps they already feel confident in themselves and I think they feel they have other things to contribute to relationships.
At least I liked to feel that I contributed a lot to this last relationship even if it wasn’t financially “equal”. I didn’t need the luxuries, they were what he was used to and what he wanted. They were nice and enjoyable but not something I could couldn’t have lived without.
“Talk amongs yourselves”
I agree with some of that, generally … I don’t think I make a lavish salary by NYC standards, but it is not a big deal for me to buy a girl drinks or lunch from time to time, and I don’t expect them to feel obligated because of that.
You say you “definitely feel” that a guy who accepts your offer to split the bill on a second date is “not interested in me”, but I’ve certainly accepted similar offers from girls I’ve been very interested in. Most of the girls I end up dating are v. independent, assertive professionals and able to take care of themselves financially … it really depends on the situation, but I think some would be insulted if I insisted on paying.
Also, it’s interesting you write a) that you want to find someone who is “probably in better shape” than you financially; and
b) and that it’s “more important for guys to feel financially successful than it is for women.”
Yet you never draw a connection between these two statements. I mean, c’mon — guys also want to feel confident in their ability to attract and retain a partner.
Could it be that the reason your ex-husband “never felt good about himself as a ‘guy’ and successful” is because he sensed that you wanted someone in better financial shape than him?